Ep 14 - Mobility Hubs with Rebecca Karbaumer

What is your city even doing if it's not doing Mobility Hubs?

Rebecca Karbaumer is an expert for Shared Mobility and Mobility Management at the Department of Transportation in Bremen, working to create more sustainable, liveable and socially equitable cities.

We talk about Mobility Hubs, a very powerful idea perfected in Bremen, now finally becoming mainstream:

- what is a mobility hub and what super powers does it have?

- keeping the modern lifestyle without losing anything

- how come Bremen has been doing this for so many years?

- the few occasions when people change their mobility behavior

- the super-bonus: mobility hubs and housing affordability

- do people really want parking spaces? 

- what about cycling?

- how it feels to have absolute freedom of choice

- future challenges and political frustration

*This episode was recorded in December 2025 in Bremen, Germany.

More about Bremen's Mobility Hubs:

https://mobilpunkt-bremen.de/

The Share North Square project and The Low Car Diet Podcast:

https://www.interregnorthsea.eu/sn2

Housing Europe:

https://www.housingeurope.eu/

Transcript

Doru: 0:00

Hi and welcome to Collective Choices, after a bit of a break. I'm Doru Oprisan and today I'm recording in Bremen, Germany. My guest on the podcast is Rebecca Karbaumer, but I'm also her guest because I'm in her office right now. Thank you for having me.

Rebecca: 0:16

It's a real pleasure to have you here, Doru.

Doru: 0:18

You are an expert for shared mobility and uh mobility management at the Department of Transportation in Bremen. So you work a lot in mobility in cities with all the problems that uh cities have in this field. And for some time I wanted to specifically talk about a very useful concept: mobility hubs. What are mobility hubs?

Rebecca: 0:40

There are a lot of definitions in the meantime for mobility hubs. It almost seems like a real trend topic over the last few years. And when you think of it historically, like the big definition of mobility hub is nothing new. A train station can be a mobility hub. It has different long-distance railway services coming together, local transport services, information services. So the question is, is it something new or not? But the mobility hub as we see it here in Bremen is about local mobility and about daily mobility needs of residents. And for us, that has really few basic elements. And one of the basic elements is car sharing, the car that you share and that you use and do not own yourself.

Doru: 1:21

Okay. So you have the option of uh using a car without the cost of having a car.

Rebecca: 1:25

Exactly. Exactly. You pay for only when you use it. So for the time you use it, it's yours, and that's the cost you cover. And then when you're done, you drop it off, you're finished, and you don't have to worry about any of the other costs like insurances or fuel or taxes or depreciation. It's really an all-inclusive car without all of the hassle.

Doru: 1:44

There's a lot of hassle. I mean, you know, looking for parking spaces, uh, the insurance, as you said, service, everything, there's a lot of that. But I think in the cities, the essential thing is the choice that it can give you. So you have this point in the city, a mobility hub, and you go there and you choose what you need for that day.

Rebecca: 2:04

Exactly. I mean, a mobility hub is not just a car share station for us, it's also clear signage saying that something special or something different is happening here. It also always involves bicycle parking, because in Bremen we want to encourage cycling. And one way of encouraging cycling is also to offer secure bicycle parking, not only for the users of the mobility hub, but also of the surrounding neighborhood. Then there's you know, clear marking, clear signage, and so that it's very visible uh in the neighborhood, because um mobility services, especially shared mobility, lives from visibility. And what we wanted to accomplish with the mobility hubs is to draw car sharing out of back lots, out of parking garages, and into the public realm and to the public visibility to make it easier to reach, easier to access, and so that non-users are also aware that services are there. And yeah, like you said, it's um the flexibility, this freedom of choice that you have all of a sudden. When you do not own a car and it's the automatic first choice, then you are much more conscious about your choice to use a car when you have to to book it, to reserve it, and maybe walk a few meters to the next station. You really decide also, do I need a car for this specific journey? And what kind of car do I need for this specific journey? I think that's also the the beauty of car sharing, is that you can choose the type of vehicle, the size that best meets your your needs. You know, if you're traveling on your own or only with one other person, a small compact car is enough. If you need to go to the DIY store, you can take a van. Or if you're traveling with a group, you can take a nine-seater bus. You don't need to own a huge car just for that once-a-month big shopping hall.

Doru: 3:47

To get the benefits of the big car.

Rebecca: 3:48

Exactly. You don't need to own a camper van as well.

Doru: 3:52

So who are you targeting? Are you targeting um only people who don't have a car or also other people?

Rebecca: 3:58

Um targeting anybody, essentially, who doesn't need a car for their daily trips. Like you have a job where you need a car to be able to fulfill your job or or to do your tasks. So that's not who we're who we're targeting. If you need a car to commute to work every day because your work is not accessible via public transport, that's fine. But for those people who don't need a car for their daily trips to work or to school and only need it on occasion, those are really the classic um car share user groups. Here in Bremen, we target replacing the first vehicle in the household, but in some regions, it might make sense to target the second vehicle in the household so that households don't need to own two cars as a backup car just in case, or for, yeah, the shopping once a week or for holidays for things like that. This year we launched a citywide bike share system as well with cargo bikes. And the cargo bikes are also located at our mobility hubs. Um, and that's also a great way to supplement car use, um, car ownership, especially that second car in the household, or even car trips if necessary, because a lot of the things you can transport via car, you can transport with a cargo bike. And the same principle counts. It's like visibility, accessibility. And we have um almost 60 cargo bikes now at over 20 of our mobilpunkte now for um those occasional uses as well. You don't need to own a cargo bike in order to have access to one.

Doru: 5:22

Because a cargo bike is not uh cheap either. There are expensive cargo bikes lately, especially when you want to carry something, you might need an electric cargo bike, and then that's gonna be expensive.

Rebecca: 5:33

Exactly. And a lot of households also don't have the space for a cargo bike. Exactly. That's too. Yeah.

Doru: 5:38

So if I go into one of the mobility hubs in Bremen right now, what can I find? Cars, vans, bikes, cargo bikes?

Rebecca: 5:48

Yeah, you will always find shared cars, you will always find the mobilepunkt um signage, you will always find bicycle parking. Depending on the size of the mobility hub, uh, or we call the mobile punkte, which can range anywhere from two vehicles to our largest one has 12 different sizes of cars, compact vehicles, all the way up to like nine-seater vans uh and Ford transits. There are station wagons in there, there are cargo vans. I don't know how to call them precisely. Um, some of them are electric, uh, not all of them are electric because car sharing is inherently sustainable. It doesn't have to be electric to be environmentally friendly.

Doru: 6:26

Exactly. You are you know dropping the footprint already because you are sharing a car. I I saw you have some numbers around the usage. So one shared car, how many normal cars, owned cars does it replace?

Rebecca: 6:40

Well, this is hot off the press because we're just about to publish a new study um from this year where we surveyed and or invited all car share users in Bremen to participate, as well as 6,500 non-users, um, so non-car share users to participate in a survey about the impact of car sharing awareness, reasons for for using it, and also concerns or hindrances for using it. But the main focus one was we wanted to find out uh what is the impact of car sharing on private car ownership. So hot off the press, we can say that in Bremen, one car share vehicle replaces 18.8 private cars. Aaron Powell. Yes.

Doru: 7:16

You heard it here first.

Rebecca: 7:17

Exactly. That means because of the car share offer that we have here in Bremen, there are more than 11,000 fewer cars on the streets taking up public space, very valuable public space.

Doru: 7:28

When you think about it, really impressive numbers. And if you convert that into space, as you said, very valuable space, urban space. Uh imagine those square meters if you would have to pay for an apartment, you know, for of that size. It's very expensive space. So it adds up. So it's a massive difference that you can make with shared mobility like this.

Rebecca: 7:50

Yeah. I mean, if a city had to invest in public parking garages to store that many vehicles, it would be hundreds of millions of euros just to store private property that sits around 95% of the day. Exactly. Unused. Yeah, unused, exactly. So car sharing is a much more efficient use of cars, existing car stock and a vehicle fleet, because more people have access to that vehicle. Um, it's moving more often, the environmental standards are are higher in the vehicles, and it's much more efficient use of space, as we say, because a lot of people in Bremen don't need a car for their daily trips. And this is the case across Europe. I would say in Bremen, almost 70% of daily trips are done using sustainable transport modes, walking, cycling, public transport. But car ownership rate is still really high, and we have a major problem with too many private cars for the available space, and therefore an issue with illegal parking and intersections and on the pavement, places that are reserved for people, people with handicaps and for children who are hindered in their daily mobility because of all of these parked cars. So car sharing plays a really, really important role in reducing private car ownership and addressing this major transport problem in our city. And we're really pleased to see that this replacement ratio is is growing. So 18.8, and that even more people are using car sharing in the city. It's over 30,000 users now.

Doru: 9:18

I heard that these mobility hubs might have started in Bremen. So what's the story? Because I understand that um here it has been going on for quite some time. How come? Why why Bremen?

Rebecca: 9:30

Yeah. In 2003, Bremen started designating public street space for the purpose of car sharing and directly under this concept of mobile punctu. Why? Because of this impact on reducing car ownership. It was really, really early that we recognized that car sharing can provide an attractive alternative to car ownership and help us deal with the issue of space in the city and how much space is consumed by the simple parking of private cars that are not used on a regular basis. And from early on, we were able to convince, or a colleague and a mentor of mine was able to convince politicians of the positive impact of car sharing on public space.

Doru: 10:12

I think this was the question I was most interested in. You know, it's a small city in Germany. People like cars. There's a big car industry here. So I was curious uh to understand how come it was accepted here as a viable solution compared to other cities in Europe or in Germany. So do you have any insight into why politicians here were open to this idea?

Rebecca: 10:35

Yeah. So Bremen is a city-state, uh, and that often comes with very little money for measures. So we have to be really wise with the means and the measures that we have available. And we have to look at what are the most efficient solutions for our problems. And um we don't have the luxury of throwing money at our problems, or so that the issue of parking garages in neighborhoods is just non-existent because it's extremely expensive. But it's extremely expensive for any city to provide parking. But especially in Bremen, where money is always scarce, we have to look at efficient, um highly effective measures. And car sharing is low invest from the city of point of the city. So investing in infrastructure for car sharing. Um obviously we don't operate um car sharing services ourselves as a city, but um, having policies that support the growth of car sharing and providing public space is an efficient way for us to um increase the growth of car sharing and increase that impact for very low investment.

Doru: 11:38

I think that's a very good insight into how you know one city can come up with solutions starting from a basic need. It's just kind of weird that other cities didn't come to that conclusion as well. You said you started this uh some years ago, right? And if you look around even today in Europe, I'm not seeing mobility hubs in many places. For example, in um in Stockholm, just now when they are building some new neighborhoods, you might see one or two shared cars, but it's kind of an experiment, it's not widely known. And uh, if you talk to associations uh in different neighborhoods, they might say, Yeah, we didn't think about we heard about it, but we didn't think about having our own. So it's still a faraway concept for many cities. Why the slow adoption across Europe at least?

Rebecca: 12:29

Yeah. Um, at least for for us here in Bremen, it's been a long tradition of car sharing, and it's been a focus in a lot of EU projects that we've had over the years and a lot of personal dedication from individual staff members here, promoting the positive message uh of car sharing and what it can accomplish. Um, and also promoting this message that car sharing is part of the solution to transport problem spatial issues and also social equity um issues in cities. In other cities, I'm also observing that any kind of car is viewed as taking up a lot of space, um, but that certain types of car-shared cars can be part of the solution is still, I think, very much an awareness issue. And that's why we will continue like drumming the same message nationally and also internationally. I mean, Europe, Germany has the largest car sharing market, um, but also France, Belgium, they do a lot to support the growth of car sharing. Um, in the Netherlands, there's a network for sustainable mobility. Um, it also promotes car sharing as part of the solution. So there are some countries where we're seeing growth, but there's still a lot of lack of knowledge on municipal and on local level about the benefits of shared mobility, the benefits of car sharing, and especially station-based car sharing.

Doru: 13:41

Let's also talk about some problems because, for example, I remember a few years ago, there was a company doing or trying to do uh car sharing in uh in Bucharest, Romania. And after I think less than two years, it failed, and there was no alternative. So it was just like one project, it didn't go well, it ended. Why can that happen? So, or rather, what would a project like this need to succeed?

Rebecca: 14:09

I think one important thing for especially for public authorities to understand is that car sharing is a really difficult business case. And it's a really difficult thing to understand sort of the the secrets of the trade. It's also a business where not a lot of profit is made. So the the profit margins aren't um so big. But a lot of car sharer companies survive because they've grown out of this grassroots. Um, we want to incite positive change things. So it's not about making money, it's about making an impact, um, about uh providing alternative to car use of ownership, um, having a positive environmental impact. And that's what drives a lot of the smaller and medium-sized enterprises that are the main drivers behind car sharing. Um, so I've seen a lot of companies come and go in the time that I've been working on car sharing, except for those small like grassroots that had their grassroots origins. What's also really important, though, is for City to have a policy to support car sharing growth. And one of those things is to provide that space in the public realm and ideally at a low cost or even free of charge, so that those services are visible. Because the only thing you know a car-sharing vehicle is competing with in any way. It's not other car share providers, it's competing with the privately owned car. And if it's more difficult to access car sharing than it is to access a privately owned car, it's not going to succeed. Absolutely.

Doru: 15:30

Yeah. So I think that, as you said, it's not the best uh idea of a business, but for cities it's uh it's a net plus. So I think it's kind of um equation where you have at least two uh actors involved who are trying to benefit one is the company and the second is the city. The idea of a success um story would be to team up in in a way financially as well.

Rebecca: 15:54

It could be, yeah. It's not that there isn't a business case in car sharing. There is, and there are definitely companies that manage to make a profit, but they have to be really clever about it. It's not a it's not a sure deal. There's really a lot of a lot of hard work, not only in understanding the business, but also understanding the politics um behind it. And um, yes, public support is really, really important. So governmental and policy support for um growing car sharing quickly, definitely. But that doesn't necessarily have to mean financial support or a subsidy if the framework around mobility hubs and car sharing gives the providers the space, not only physically, like not only literally, but also financially to grow. In Bremen, we have a car sharing action plan. We're currently working on a shared mobility action plan for the goals for our next 10 years of car sharing development here. And the car sharing action plan from 2009 defined a framework of growth for the city. One of them is the car share stations in the public realm, so the mobilpunkte. Another one is integrating it into our public fleet, so so that we as a city use car sharing if we have business trips where we need to use a car. Um, integrating into public transport and especially integrating into new housing developments, because that's a really important opportunity. We're getting to that. Yeah, we're getting to that. And and public awareness work. A city can do public awareness raising for car sharing mobility hubs without giving an economic advantage to a single provider.

Doru: 17:24

I had an idea on my way here. You know, one of the hard questions when it comes to car sharing is uh yeah, but uh for holidays, uh, if we all want a car at the same time, we won't have any car available, right? Now you just mentioned that uh cities and uh city employees should use these fleets as well, mobility fleets. I was thinking that you could actually combine the two ideas. And during the holidays, city employees don't usually work, so the cars are not normally used. You can expand the mobility hubs then, maybe uh have extra cars for holidays.

Rebecca: 17:58

Sure. I think important for a business in the case for any provider is to have an even balance between like private use and commercial, basically, because they're used at different times. Companies who use car sharing services during the day and on weekdays, and private people tend to use car sharing in the evenings and and on weekends. And yes, there's definitely a peak in the summer months for holidays, but that's also the beauty of station-based car sharing is that you can reserve a car months in advance, even a year in advance, so that you know when I am going on holiday in the Alps and I want to go there by car, that I can book a car in in time.

Doru: 18:34

So is that a feasible scenario?

Rebecca: 18:36

It is possible. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, definitely. And some car share providers also work with these like block bookings for companies who absolutely want to have this assurance that they'll have vehicles available during the day. You know, it's it's booked only for the company, and then it's opened for the public evenings and weekends. There are also smaller municipalities in Flanders and Belgium, for example, that are not attractive for commercial car share providers. So as a municipality, they have a few municipal cars that they use during the business hours and then open them for the public in the evening.

Doru: 19:05

And so not an original idea, sorry.

Rebecca: 19:10

But it's still not so common. So it's still a good idea.

Doru: 19:13

Okay, okay, thank you, thank you. I will work on it. So let's get into the housing part because there's a very interesting connection here. And uh, you know, there are all these policies, all these rules that when you build housing, you have to have a number of certain number of parking spaces. And you, as a customer, a person who wants to buy an apartment, let's say, you will pay for that. And sometimes you might not need it. So, where is you know car sharing coming into this picture?

Rebecca: 19:43

Aaron Powell You also pay for it if you're a renter and if you don't need it or not, because it's um put into the cost of your rent or your housing, whether you need it or not. And this is particularly challenging for social or public housing developers who are required to build a lot of carpet. Parking spaces because of parking norms of the municipality where they're building, maybe. But they're building for a target group that can't afford to own a car, doesn't need one. So they're building empty garages that drive up the cost of social housing as well. Exactly. Which is also one of the reasons why we're working with Housing Europe, which is the European Association of Social Housing Developers, and they're pushing the benefits of shared mobility to their members as a way of saving costs in construction. And yes, definitely, if shared mobility like car sharing is integrated into parking norms or housing developments, it's an opportunity to build a lot less parking and reduce the cost of housing. Also to reduce the amount of space required for car parking, which can be used for other purposes, either more housing. You say, you know, the average car parking space takes up 12 square meters, even more over 20 if you add all of the infrastructure leading up to that car parking space. That's the same size as a child's bedroom.

Doru: 20:59

Yeah, it's a normal sized bedroom.

Rebecca: 21:01

More normal sized bedroom, or or an extra office, or a terrace, or a garden, or a green space outside. There's so much more that can be done with that space to make the place more attractive to live and much more affordable. And depending on type of developer what you talk to, and we do a lot of uh advising for housing developers here in Bremen. And we also have an EU project with six cities and also six housing developers in each city. And there are a lot of different perspectives. Some housing developers will say, I need that car parking space, otherwise, I cannot sell the property. My buyers would demand it. And others are saying hooray, I'm finally an alternative. So I don't have to build the car parking space because my buyers can't afford it or they don't want it. They'd rather have um extra space. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Doru: 21:47

Or a bike garage.

Rebecca: 21:48

Or a bike garage, exactly. Um and a few years ago here um in Bremen, we did a survey where we asked residents of housing projects that had a mobility concept integrated. So they were offered mobility management alternatives. And we asked them, what do you think of the idea of less car parking being offered and an alternative part being offered at the same time? And the majority said, this is a great idea. I don't need the car parking if there's an alternative. There's always going to be the small portion that says, I need my parking space, I need or I want my car, and that's fine. Um, as long as you're able to reach that target group that says, I'm open for alternatives, and I'm open for less parking if you provide an alternative. So we were able to show developers that there are very different views among their potential tenants and buyers as well.

Doru: 22:37

Aaron Powell I think I read something that uh developers think they need more parking spaces than they really do.

Rebecca: 22:44

Indeed, yeah.

Doru: 22:45

So it's also a problem of uh of perception on their side.

Rebecca: 22:48

Aaron Powell Yeah. They quite often tend to overestimate the need for parking, especially also in like supermarket.

Doru: 22:53

Um I need to offer this and this and this, otherwise I won't have clients.

Rebecca: 22:57

Yeah, yeah, precisely. I mean, we've also done surveys in the city center. You know, the Saturday before Christmas, the parking garages in the city center are still not completely at capacity or full. So it's really often an overestimatation of the value of parking. And when we're talking also about the value of parking, we've also asked our housing developers, is it possible even to get a return on investment for car parking? And if the developers renting the car parking space, they say never. Not in 20 years do we ever get a return on investment of building the parking garage, let alone maintaining it.

Doru: 23:34

So in a way, it sounds like this simple idea, this uh mobility hub is giving me the citizen a less expensive house. I skip the costs of having the car and everything else related to it, but I still have access to the car, I still have the benefits.

Rebecca: 23:50

And still have the same amount of freedom if if not more.

Doru: 23:53

Like how much money do I save per person, let's say? One parking spot in a new housing project can be anywhere from you know 3,000 euros to 20,000 euros. I I heard crazy amounts of money for a parking space.

Rebecca: 24:07

Even more. Even more, especially if you go underground, the cost of building a car parking space can be up to 60,000 euros or more.

Doru: 24:15

Than the car itself. It's you know, 20,000, 30,000 euros or I don't know. So it can be a lot. It's a lot of money that you can save if you are open to this idea that okay, I don't need a parking space and uh I don't need to have my own car. But then you need this help, you need to be offered options, alternatives. Uh, somewhere close to your house, you need to have an option to to find a car, to find a bike, to find what you need for that day.

Rebecca: 24:41

Indeed. And the true cost of owning a car with all of the things that belong to it are so intransparent for people that it it's really not a a deciding factor uh for a lot of people. It's not a rational decision for for the most time. And personally, I like to spend my money on on other things or need to spend my money on other things. And I'm really grateful to live and work in a city that has a very good car share system and a network of mobility hubs because I have absolute freedom of choice. I can use any type of vehicle with, you know, the member I'm a member of two car sharing companies. I have 9,000 vehicles at my disposal, if if I'm honest. I mean, that's luxurious. That's take that, Elon Musk. He doesn't have that many. Um, but I don't I don't need it. You know, I need a car maybe once or twice a month. Um, it's it's just around the corner. And I really love that I don't have to take care of vehicle maintenance or anything. I I use it and I'm and I'm done with it. There are some people that enjoy that, but I don't um personally, and I feel absolutely free and absolutely flexible that I that I don't have to do that. And there's so many alternatives uh around me as well. You know, if one station is fully booked, the next one is not far away. I mean in Bremen we have the goal of having maximum 300 meters between each car sharing station, that's maximum five-minute walk um to the next offer.

Doru: 26:01

You've been doing a podcast lately called The Low Card Diet, and you've been traveling to a couple of cities in Europe who have different uh projects uh um related to housing mostly. I listened to the podcast about Helsinki in Sweden, and um you mentioned there while talking about uh Oceanham, one neighborhood that's built with very few cars or rather parking spaces, that um you still get access to a high quality lifestyle. And I liked the the phrasing because actually that's what you get, or that's what people associate with having a car and a parking space and everything. And you still get that with the mobility hubs. And it's important for people to understand that this is what they're getting. So it's not something that's taken away from them, like the parking spot. You still get the quality lifestyle.

Rebecca: 26:50

Yeah, um, I think one of the the important things for projects like that or like uh an Utrecht where I was in two weeks ago, um a development site with six thousand um flats planned, but very little parking. Uh, and the parking that is available will be quite expensive. We're talking about you know 240 euros a month. Okay. Um that's really expensive. Expensive to pay. So you only those who can really afford it or really need it kind of for that luxury of that space. But people have to be aware that that's going to be the case when they move there. So that when when they come, they're expected, or they will either have to pay for parking or they won't be available. There's a really small window of opportunity to change mobility behavior when something major changes in somebody's life. You know, when you start a new job, when you start a family, when the kids move out, or when you move house. That's the time when um transport choices for a very short time are rational decisions. You like reorientate, you have to find your new ways, and you um have to make new decisions about how you you're going to get from A to B. So it's really important for cities, but also developers to address that point in in life and make information available, but not just information, but give answers for how they will be able to meet um their their daily mobility needs, how new systems work, and to take away or address concerns and take away fears. Once you're past that rational frame, which can take only one or two weeks, new mobility behaviors will have established, new routines, and then it becomes really difficult to break. Where humans are creatures of habit, right?

Doru: 28:24

It's actually quite a big uh communication effort. So you must not underestimate the communication when it comes to this. Somebody from Munich, I think, was saying a while ago that when you build a new neighborhood and you have a mobility offering that has to be there when the people come and see the apartments before they move, because they are already considering, okay, if I move there, how am I going to get to work? Ah, I need a car. Okay, I'm gonna get a car, or I'm gonna keep the car, or you know, it's always part of the equation. And you have to have the answers before they take that decision, even.

Rebecca: 29:00

That's a super challenging part uh about planning mobility hubs in new real estate developments, is that timing, getting that timing just right. Because yeah, like you said, the service has to be there when the people move in. They have to know about that it's going to be there before they move in so that they can also mentally prepare and sort of reconsider, but not too early, because then it becomes a really challenging aspect for the mobility providers there. And we've had a couple situations in Bremen that haven't been ideal. Like the mobility hub was finished, and then there was a delay in the construction project and not just a few weeks, but years. So the shared cars were there, but the users weren't there. And it was economically really, really challenging for the provider to survive. In another situation, the building project was finished, but there were delays in the road works, and we missed that window of opportunity as well. So it's getting that timing just right so that the shared mobility provider, especially the car share provider, can invest in the vehicles, that we as a city can invest in the infrastructure and have it there when people move in, but not too early, otherwise, it becomes too much of an economic burden on uh the shared mobility providers because they don't have users, but they've had to put vehicles there.

Doru: 30:10

Hearing you say this makes it very clear that this is a joint effort. You need to have the city involved, you need to have the mobility uh companies involved, and you need to communicate everything to the people. From what I've seen in different cities in um different parts of the world, one recent example would be Paris. It's always a long journey, it's always a long period when everything has to come together if you really want to see a difference in terms of how people move in that city. You see, you look at Paris today, and it's like, oh my god, it's it was overnight, people just started cycling. No, it was a long effort, many years, and uh, you know, a lot of work behind the scene.

Rebecca: 30:52

Yeah, um, and somebody who has the reins in their hand, but it's never one stakeholder doing all the work uh on their own, and it's a juggling act, uh, definitely, and has this long period of planning um in advance. Um, a lot of knowledge, a lot of patience is required. And sometimes it can be really frustrating. Then I remember something a mentor of mine said to me, um, if it was easy, it wouldn't be anything special.

Doru: 31:14

I think it's a bit like architecture because you have to think about everything like the resistance, you know, the walls, the pipes, uh the air quality, everything at once. Everything has to be okay. After all these years, do you feel that um this job of yours became easier in the sense that now people in Bremen at least uh know what a mobility hobby is, they've seen it work and their acceptance is you know easier to get?

Rebecca: 31:41

It's become easier in a sense, um, because there is a greater level of understanding. We have now a legal framework for um on national and on local uh level that we didn't have for the first 14 years that we were doing the mobile punctu. So there's some things that have become easier and faster on a regulatory level, and some things that have also become easier because it's no longer a debate about whether we as a city should be in investing or promoting car sharing. And now we have to manage expectations where a lot of local counselors are really frustrated because it's not going faster. Why are we not doing more mobile punctua and more car sharing? And we have to say, well, you know, it has to grow organically, um, the change doesn't happen overnight, especially car ownership.

Doru: 32:26

Um it's a nice problem to have now, huh?

Rebecca: 32:29

It's it's a really nice problem to have, exactly. And it's what it's been almost 20 years in the way, in the making of really repeating the message. So that's really nice that it's no longer a matter of principle. Should we do car sharing, should we do bike sharing or shared cargo bikes? Um, we've got a lot of really positive support. Now it's still the debate sometimes about like where should we plan them would be a punct and occasional resistance still from a neighborhood because there's this perception we're taking away their personal parking space to which they have a God-given right, you know, even if it's just public realm. But that's also gotten a lot less. Occasionally it pops up, but uh it's really rare. So then since uh things have become easier because we don't have this like fundamental debate about car sharing anymore.

Doru: 33:12

And do you see this now spreading uh more across Germany at least?

Rebecca: 33:17

Yeah, indeed. Uh several German cities have copied art concept, they're even faster now at expanding their mobility hub network. Like Dresden only started in 2018. They were inspired by Bremen, but they have, I think, 150 mobilepunkt associations in the public realm already. So they're really, really driving this um this development. But we we were the first in Germany and the first to dare to designate public space and to show cities how it can be done to influence uh the national car sharing law and this regulatory framework. And we really appear in a lot of like best practice guides and how-to guides that the German CarShare Association produces for cities. So yeah, a lot of cities are following Brehman's example. We have a regular exchange with colleagues from other cities to talk about challenges we're dealing with or that they are dealing with, and we ask each other for advice also on like electrification, communication issues, things like that.

Doru: 34:12

That's very nice. I hope to see uh mobility hub in every neighborhood, in every city, everywhere.

Rebecca: 34:18

That's my vision too.

Doru: 34:19

Yeah, I think it makes so much sense just to have this um freedom of choice. You have alternatives. Okay, what do I need? Do I need to own a car or do I need to uh borrow one or do I need to borrow a bike? I mean, why not have alternatives and you can choose on the spot what you need. Tell me what else is happening in Bremen? Uh, you mentioned the bike sharing scheme, and I I think that's something uh still new.

Rebecca: 34:43

Yeah, that's um quite new as of this year, April of this year. Uh we launched a new citywide bike share system with 1,450 um shared bikes and 60 cargo bikes. And the cargo bikes are station-based and they're all located at mobile punkte. Then the standard bikes are free-floating, but um we also have stations at major hotspots like the railway station, uh, where we have a lot of um commuter traffic coming and going. We also need to organize the space uh a bit more clearly, also to be more considerate of people um with um physical and visual impairments. Um we're really, really happy with how well that's kicked off. In September, we issued a press release and we already had over 25,000 registered users, a quarter of a million trips. I hope by now that's doubled. We're we're having this chat in December. The operator of the system, well, the system's called Bre Bike, Bremen bike, Breh Bike, um, but the provider is Next Bike, so we work um really closely with them on a weekly basis to get that system started. And we're really happy, as I said, how how it's taken off because bike sharing is such a great supplement to public transport for that last mile solution for times in the evening where bus and tram frequency isn't as high, and also to allow people who don't own a bike the opportunity to use one, either, you know, tourists or commuters, but also people of um lower income or different cultural backgrounds where bike ownership isn't um as common. So it's also making contribution to reducing transport poverty in our city.

Doru: 36:20

And just because it makes so much sense, uh again, it's something very basic. It's very easy to go around the city on short distances, you know, by bike and not worry about parking or anything like that. And uh I remember we used to have in uh Stockholm a bike sharing scheme, not anymore. I hope it's coming back anyway. And I remember that uh we were going out in the city center and we were feeling like having a walk, you know, taking some steps on the way back. Hmm, it's kind of far. A bike would be nice, and uh you would have the bike sharing scheme available and you would take the bike. And uh it makes sense even for people who own a bike.

Rebecca: 36:56

Exactly. It's a freedom of choice. Again, I I personally own two bikes: my cargo bike or I have a long tail bike and uh road bike for for sport, but I use the shared bike much more often than my private bike now because I do part of my commute to work on foot uh and walk my dog on the way to the office. So I either hop on the bus and then on the way back. I don't feel like walking the whole way, so I grab a bike and continue the whole way. And I just I feel much more free and flexible because I don't have to go back to where I parked my bike and then collect it, or if I leave it at the train station overnight, I don't have to worry about my bike being stolen or my bike seat being stolen or something like that.

Doru: 37:34

And you can say that you are also testing the service you are working.

Rebecca: 37:38

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I'm I'm understanding the user experience as well.

Doru: 37:42

And I understand there's also something special about the funding of this uh new bike sharing scheme.

Rebecca: 37:48

Um special in the sense that most cities um that have a bike share system subsidize it 100%. Um we only subsidize half of the operating costs, um we subsidize the the purchase of the bikes and half of the operating costs. Um, because we also want the bike share provider to have an incentive to form local corporations that are not paid for by the city. So um Next Bike also cooperates with the technical university and the university, as well as housing developers and our public transport operator to generate additional revenue. Um in turn, they can keep the revenue that they've earned.

Doru: 38:23

And are you seeing that um cycling has been growing in recent years, not just related to this scheme, uh, because this one is still new, but in general?

Rebecca: 38:32

Aaron Powell In general, yeah. This year the latest transportation statistics were published, and we've seen a increase in the modal split of cycling since 2017, definitely. So now 28% of daily trips in Bremen are done by bicycle, 27% by walking, 12% with public transport, and the rest by car. But we've seen since the last study a 2 to 4% increase in cycling modal share, which is, you know, maybe it doesn't sound like a lot, and especially from a city that is, you know, only increased from 25 to 28 percent. But making that change over time is is hard. It's hard.

Doru: 39:08

I mean, it's harder to get from twenty-five to twenty-eight than it is to get from three to seven kind of, or from three to ten.

Rebecca: 39:15

Exactly. Getting the early adopters might be a little bit easier. It's the same thing for for shared mobility as well. You get the early adopters and then making it mainstream for more is the next big push that you have to make. And it requires investment in infrastructure to make cycling safer, um, obviously, but also access to bikes plays a role. So I'll be interested in to see, hopefully in a few years, if the bike share system has also had an an impact.

Doru: 39:40

Aaron Powell Speaking of looking into the future, looking um towards Europe, what are you seeing in terms of uh developments or trends? What do you think is happening right now in Europe?

Rebecca: 39:51

Um mixed mixed feelings. I definitely think we'll see more mobility hubs because it's such a trendy topic. A lot of mayors. Hearing about it. They find that. Yeah, they want to have it. But with every trend, especially in the mobility field, I always ask cities that I advise, what do you want to accomplish with this trend? Always think about where you want to go or where you want to end up before implementing a measure, because sometimes a mobility hub might not be the best way for you to achieve that goal. It's the same thing with like mobility as a service and apps. Everybody wants it. Sounds great, sounds sexy. But the question is, can one really change mobility behavior or what do you want to achieve? And that's what I was saying before. And in Bremen, we have to be sensible about our investments because we have limited money. And that's a new challenge that's coming up for a lot of cities. Also, cities who've had a lot of money to invest in infrastructure projects in the past are beginning to struggle financially now.

Doru: 40:47

And cities are always growing and you always need more space, more public transport, more, you know.

Rebecca: 40:54

Exactly. So it's important to ask which transport problem or local problem do you want to solve? And is a mobility hub the right thing to do that? Or then what services do you need to have at the mobility hub? Don't build a mobility hub just for the sake of having one, because then also you run the risk of somebody saying, Well, see, it didn't work. But yeah, I think mobility hubs are are definitely arising. I do a lot of interviews for students doing their master's thesis or their doctorate on the topic. So that's certainly a trend. And I'm seeing a more local trend for uh mobility alternatives and more green space in cities. But unfortunately, the trend is also now an economic one.

Doru: 41:33

Not the best times economically, yes.

Rebecca: 41:35

Yeah, different challenging times economically and also challenging times um politically, in that a lot of cities are being forced to take a step back or roll back sustainable or innovative solutions that they implemented because of a change in government. Right. That indeed is is very frustrating, especially on like a on a staff really working level at a city, because all of the colleagues I have across Europe working for cities are in it because they want to change cities in a positive way. They want to have a positive impact on the environment, on the quality of life, and on affordability for people who live and and work in cities. I have the privilege of working a lot of really, really passionate people who are not in it for the money, but are in it because they have a vision as well. And when you um put a lot of passion and identify personally with your work, and then a change in government comes and you are forced to take a step back again, and it all feels like all of that effort for nothing and we're regressing, um, that can be really, really frustrating. I really appreciate having the privilege of working in EU projects and talking with colleagues and knowing that everybody's experience may be a similar trend and similar challenge, it makes it um easier to keep fighting for the good solutions.

Doru: 42:52

I think you see ups and downs. This is definitely a bit of a down period right now, but uh I don't think it would last that long because a lot of the solutions just make sense. And people have seen them now, after the pandemic, especially, and people became aware of the possible solutions and the possible alternatives. And I don't think there is any going back. Okay, we might slow down, but I think the direction at least is still forward. So we'll have to stay positive and uh we'll have to see what happens.

Rebecca: 43:26

Exactly. I certainly hope not. And maybe the messaging has to change a little bit because um these things still make environmental sense, definitely, but they also make economic sense. If you um change the rhetoric, and this is something that definitely should work in the United States, is that you know sustainable um mobility solutions make economic sense for the cities, for the residents, for the for the end users, absolutely. And therefore something that can be promoted regardless of party politics.

Doru: 43:54

Yeah, absolutely. It's uh better for your pocket no matter the color of the pocket.

Rebecca: 43:58

Yeah.

Doru: 43:59

Rebecca Karbaumer, thank you so much for your time and for sharing your experience. And uh good luck in keeping up this work that you're doing.

Rebecca: 44:07

Thank you so much. It was an absolute pleasure, and I hope to be able to show you a little bit uh for our city now after we're done recording.

Doru: 44:14

Let's go check out some mobility hubs.

Rebecca: 44:16

Let's have a Glühwein too.

Doru: 44:18

Okay, thanks for listening to Collective Choices. I'm Doru Oprisan, until next time.